C. Hennis: Well, I would say, to the extent that it has a bearing on improving a man’s position in his job, improving his skills at work, and improving his ability to represent his fellowman in trade unions and that kind of thing, we are concerned with it. We are concerned with generally improving his general culture, his general education, and in particular his education as a worker in relation to industrial and trade union life in general. We hope that by this means a man will improve his status, and by improving his status, he will have other things to think about than just getting drunk. So that’s the…
Yogeśvara: We find that in our society, all of our men, in whatever particular capacity of work they have, are now hundred times more productive than they were before they came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness because now they have found peace of self, and therefore they are in a better position to execute their prescribed duties successfully.
C. Hennis: Are you saying that they do more work?
Prabhupāda: No. Do work intelligently. Not that to be very hardworking like ass, without any intelligence. Just like ass is the most hardworking animal, but it has no intelligence. You see? So we don’t want that. We want working with intelligence. That is difference.
C. Hennis: Well, as I said, to that extent we do try to improve a man’s understanding, a man’s understanding of the world, and I agree it’s the developed world, the industrialized world, and the…
Prabhupāda: But if he has no brain, if he is not guided by the brain, or if he has no brain, so what is the understanding? Understanding is “I have got money. Now let me drink,” that’s all. There must be…
C. Hennis: First of all, you can’t force a man to be governed by his brain either. You can’t force a man to use his brains.
Prabhupāda: Therefore brain is… The United Nation, how the world society should keep a class of men who act as brain and guide everyone so that everyone becomes happy.
Yogeśvara: That is our movement.
C. Hennis: I think that that’s a…
Prabhupāda: That is our movement.
C. Hennis: …a valid… That’s a valid point, because it has always been found in every society that there is a need for a priestly class or a class of philosophical leaders of one kind or another. And the fact of this is recognized in the whole of the world society. I think not only in the West, but in the East, too, there’s a need for the religious…
Prabhupāda: Now the so-called, the priestly society, priestly society, they are amending the Biblical injunction according to their whims. Just like in the Bible, the injunction is, “Thou shalt not kill.” But the priestly class and all classes, they are simply killing. So how they can guide? They are keeping regular slaughterhouse for killing. So how they can guide? I have asked so many Christian gentlemen, including priests that “Your injunction is that ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ That is Lord Jesus Christ’s order. Why you are violating this?” They give me vague answers. Directly it is said, “Thou shalt not kill.” And the whole world is simply killing poor animals, and keeping up-to-date slaughterhouse.
C. Hennis: Well, I suppose they are adopting the principle that you yourself advocated just now. You said that the proper society is one which is…
Prabhupāda: That means lacking brain, lacking brain, lacking brain.
C. Hennis: But the whole world apart from the human beings, the animal world is entirely composed of beings that eat one another. The only beings that are never eaten are whales and elephants. All the others are eaten by some bigger animal, and I suppose that the justification that they have for maintaining slaughterhouses is that it is just a cleaner way of killing than for a lion to jump on the back of an antelope.
Prabhupāda: What is that? What is the supposed…
C. Hennis: It’s just a cleaner way of killing.
Yogeśvara: It is the natural order, that all animals… There are many species of animals that eat flesh, and that man is simply following the natural order.
Prabhupāda: Natural means, that means he should become animal. Like, he should imitate like the animal. That is man’s progress, do you mean to say?
C. Hennis: Well, that’s no doubt the rationale that they use.
Prabhupāda: I understand your point. That we also say, that any living entity has to live by eating another living entity. That is natural. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. It is said in the Vedic literature that one living entity is the food for another living entity.
C. Hennis: That’s true.
Prabhupāda: Just hear me. But when you come to the form of human being, you should have discrimination. If you have no discrimination, simply you live like animal, then where is the difference? My only point is the lack of brain. Human being, he has been given by nature… They are also life, the fruits, the vegetables, the food grains, the milk, the sugar, they have got enough food value, and the human being should be satisfied within this group. Why they should maintain slaughterhouse, and do not think that they are not sinful, and still they want to be happy without caring for God? That is lack of brain.
C. Hennis: My organization is not directly concerned with giving people brains.
Prabhupāda: No, your organization may not be directly concerned, but the human society, if it is brainless, however organization you may make, it will never become happy. That is my point.
C. Hennis: It is concerned with taking away the obstacles which prevent people from attaining brain.
Yogeśvara: This is the obstacle.
C. Hennis: One of the obstacles is just plain poverty. One of the obstacles is overwork.
Prabhupāda: No, no. A human being should be considerate. Everyone has got religion. Either he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn’t matter. There must be discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities. Human being should be engaged for pious activities, not for sinful activities. That is human society. If the human being does not discriminate what is pious activities and what is sinful activity, that means lack of brain. He has no brain. He is no better than the animals.
Yogeśvara: Perhaps to make it clear for you, one of the natural results of this system is that a man that might be considered today impoverished, as you were mentioning for example some of the problems, a poor man, by our standards, is not necessarily poor if he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. For example, in the Vedic culture, we are learning that a man is considered to be wealthy if he simply has a small patch of land and a cow and God consciousness. Because his God consciousness will lead him to be satisfied by growing his own foods, taking milk from the cow. This is wealth, according to Vedic standards.
Prabhupāda: Therefore cow is specially recommended, gorakṣya, because very important animal to the society. If those who are meat-eaters, they can eat the hogs and dogs, they can eat. The Vedic injunction is not prohibiting them. If you actually… Actually, a human being does not require to eat meat. He has got many other substitutes. But still, if he wants to eat, let him eat the less important animals. Just like dog, hog. From the social point of view it has no utility. But why killing cows? It is delivering such a nice nutritious food, milk. Not only milk. According to Vedic system, the cow is so important, even the urine, even the stool, of cow is important.
C. Hennis: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So such an important… And besides that, from moral point of view, you are drinking the milk of cow, and after that you are sending to the slaughterhouse. Do you like to send your mother to the slaughterhouse? And the bull is giving you, producing your food. Nowadays they have invented tractor or engaging sometimes horse. But in India still, the bulls are engaged for tilling the ground, the field, and produces. So from moral sense, the bull is producing your food and the cow is giving milk to you; therefore father and mother. Just like father produces food for the children and the mother gives the milk. So if the human society has not this simple brain of understanding, then where is brain?
C. Hennis: Of course, when you speak of the distinctions that are made between pious activities and sinful activities…
Prabhupāda: They have no such distinction. There is no such distinction.
C. Hennis: You have to establish first of all a…
Prabhupāda: No, it is already there. It is already there. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣyavāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Those who are interested in producing means of living, or foodstuff, in the society, say, the mercantile, the agriculturist, they should give protection to the cows. That is very essential, that milk isso important thing. If you get… Now, we have, in your western country, we have introduced such ideas in West Virginia. We have started one community project where we are keeping cows also. The cows are giving more milk than in other farm. They are so jubilant. Even up to eighty pounds milk, they are giving, because they know that “These people will not kill me.” They know it. They are very happy. We don’t kill their calves. In other farms, as soon as the calf is there, in front of the mother they are killed. You see? So if these things go on without any brain, without any intelligence, you may make hundreds of organization, the society will never be happy. This is our verdict.
Yogeśvara: Your point was that the people need to be taught what is sin and what is pious activities?
C. Hennis: Well, we can’t be accused of engaging in sinful activities when they don’t think that what they are doing is sinful.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Therefore, if they have no knowledge what is sinful, simply by instruction, “Don’t do something sinful,” so what is the use? They must know. We give in the beginning, in our society, “These are are sinful activities.” What is that? Meat-eating, sinful activity. And gambling, illicit sex, and intoxication. You must give it up. All these European and American boys, they were habituated to all these things from the very birth. They did not know they are sinful. But since they have come to me, I have said, “These things are sinful.” They have given up. And just compare with their character, with their behavior… [break] daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām (taranti te) [Bg. 7.14] So we must know what is the law of nature, what nature wants. Nature does not want at least human being should be sinful. Then you will be punished.
C. Hennis: I think that there, in your whole philosophy, there must be a very large number of points of coincidence with the more materialist activities that we engage in. But, well, they’re just trying to give people a fair share of the material things of life, proper wages, decent houses, decent opportunities for feeling and for leisure.
Yogeśvara: All that must be there, but without proper instructions simultaneously as to what is the goal of life…
C. Hennis: Yes, but I don’t think you can properly expect to indoctrinate people. I don’t think that… At least, you can’t expect an internationalorganization to indoctrinate people on the national level. I’m sure that the…
Prabhupāda: No, it is not national. It should be international. Just like everyone… United Nation, it is meant for international activity. Our only proposition is that as the international organization, United Nations, they should keep a class of men who should act as brain. Then it will be all right. Without brain, simply legs and hands working, no direction, that is not very good.
C. Hennis: I think you’d have to see the secretariat of the United Nations and the United Nations family of organizations, not so much as leaders and bosses and generals, if you like, but rather as the servants of mankind. I don’t go…
Prabhupāda: We can see provided we get the chance.
C. Hennis: I don’t consider myself to be a leader of mankind. I am very much a servant of mankind with a view to helping people to reduce the differences between them, with a view to helping people to understand one another better. In my own particular branch in which I’m concerned we endeavor to make people understand one another in the manner of an interpreter, if you like, to show, to allow people to speak and understand with one another, and to enable them to comprehend each other’s problems and understand…
Prabhupāda: No. If there is actual brain, there is no problem. Just like if I have got good brain… I want to take this thing in my pocket. But if I have got brain, “No, this will be stealing,” then I can refrain from it. But if I think that “It is lying here. I can take,” what is that?
C. Hennis: I think that your effort of philosophy and teaching must really be directed, in the present state of affairs where countries are organized in the form of national states, must really be directed to the national leaders of government, the people who exercise temporal and spiritual power in the various sovereign states. And the United Nations is a forum for these sovereign states. The International Labor Organization is a forum for the sovereign states on certain subjects related to labor…
Prabhupāda: No, whatever subject may be, our point is the same. You just try to understand. If… You can organize so many, but if there is lack of brain, the brain is not in order, then any amount of suborganization, organization, will never be successful. That is my point.
C. Hennis: Yes, but there some people are better endowed with brains than others. Some people haven’t got brains or not much brains.
Yogeśvara: But at least the direction must have brains. That’s the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The brain… This is the work of the first-class man, this is the work of the second-class man. Just like any organization, anyoffice, “These are for these men, the class. These are meant for the superintendent. These are meant for…” Everywhere, there must be organization, not that everyone should work whimsically. No. There must be a managing board, managing director. He is giving direction. Under his direction, everyone is organized. So the United Nations, such a great. This was organized for the total benefit of the human society, but there is no department which is actually can be called the brain organization.
C. Hennis: That’s true. That’s true.
Prabhupāda: That is my point.
C. Hennis: That’s true. They’re servants of the membership and the membership is the international…, of the states, of the world. And if the governments of the states of the world, if Mr. Giscard d’Estaing, Mr. Nixon and Mr. Wilson and all the others don’t have brain, then I’m afraid that the United Nations can do nothing to give them brains. There has to be… We are only the servants of these people. What we try and do is let them get together and help them understand their problems.
Prabhupāda: Let them understand. At least, let them understand what they should do, what they should not do. This much…
C. Hennis: This we do try to do to the extent that it is possible for the secretariat to shape and evolve a philosophy. We do try to do it. But of course we can’t adopt a completely radical approach. We do what we can in the manner of a good servant and the manner of a good steward to try and help the leaders along the right path and right direction. Your Divine Grace, I thank you very much indeed for this audience. It’s been very kind of you.
Prabhupāda: I may be a madman. I have talked so many things and you say all right.
C. Hennis: It’s been very splendid, and I thank you very much indeed for giving me…
Prabhupāda: (laughing) But I am very much, I mean, strict on this point, that if the society does not know what is sinful and what is pious, it is all useless.
C. Hennis: Well, let’s hope that they’ll be a…
Prabhupāda: It can be a decoration. That we describe, “The decoration of the dead body.” Anyone who has no brain, lost all brain, it is a dead body. So a dead body you can decorate to your full satisfaction, but what is the use of decorating a dead body?
C. Hennis: Well, thank you very much again. It’s very kind of you.
Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. Please sit down for a moment.
C. Hennis: I have to go because I have a…
Yogeśvara: If you can wait just two minutes. One tradition is that we always offer our guests prasādam, foodstuffs that we prepared.
C. Hennis: Thank you very much. But I have to go very shortly. I have to…
Yogeśvara: Well perhaps I should give him downstairs.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Give him.
C. Hennis: May I, may I? Thank you very much. That’s very kind of you. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. (Mr. Hennis goes out)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It’s true what you say Prabhupāda. They come and they put forward their idea and if you don’t like it, well, “Oh!” but if you like, “Oh, very good man.” They have their own ideas.
Prabhupāda: What, his nonsense idea. From the result we see nobody is happy. What is this idea? They have big, big scientists, big, big politicians, big, big…, but where is it people are happy? They are simply fighting. Now, recently in Rome, Italy, the Communists and the Fascists fought, and six innocent person died. So where is the benefit of this United Nations? They do not have really brain. Manufacturing something, concocting something. That’s all. Where is the brain? They have no discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities.
Yogeśvara: He admitted it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will admit it. Cow is giving milkmother. And bull is producing food—he is father. And they are being killed? Is that human society? How they can be happy? There is no possibility. Regularly they are maintaining slaughterhouse especially for the cows and bulls. Why don’t you slaughter the dogs and hogs and eat if you are meat-eater? There are many meat-eaters who eat dogs. Dog is useless. You can eat. Hog is also useless. They are eating also dog and hog, everything, whatever they…
Yogeśvara: His point was that they can… He was thinking that man has the capacity for resolving his own problems. Simply we have to come together and organize.
Prabhupāda: That is United Organization. Why do they not think all these things?
Yogeśvara: There is no direction.
Prabhupāda: No direction. There is no brain. Therefore for the last, why last? Twenty years? Before that, in our younger days, the League of Nation, that was formulated in 1918, ’19. So they are trying to unite the whole nation under different names from ’18, apart from other year. So for the more than fifty-five, sixty years, they are all good brains of thenation. What they have done? That means they have no brain. The problems are increasing. Instead of decreasing the problems, they are increasing.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You used the example that in the United States…
Prabhupāda: Now there was fight between two opposite nations. Now, within the nation, there are so many opposite parties, they are fighting. So instead of nationwide, it has become homely affairs, my home, your home, fighting. That’s all. Although we belong to the same nation. So what is the improvement? Now, in Italy the Fascist party and the Communist party, they fought and so many people died. So this will increase, increasing, partyism. So where is the brain?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So then the first point is to educate people who they are serving, they are working for.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, there must be a class of men, ideal men, brain; people will follow them. My request is therefore that you should become ideal men. If we fight… Now there is fighting amongst ourself. That is very disappointment to me. The same politics, intrigues. The nature is so strong that brain becomes, what is called? Fag brain? Brain becomes deranged.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: I remember on a walk in Vṛndāvana, Your Divine Grace said that there should be no politics in our society because a Vaiṣṇava means one who wants to help others become happy.
Prabhupāda: Now politics is coming in. As soon as we are getting money, the politics coming. That is a great concern.
Yogeśvara: What will happen to our temples in the cities? Will we keep them?
Yogeśvara: Our temples. These big, big temples we have now.
Prabhupāda: No, no. We have to go everywhere. Wherever there is opportunity to instruct about this spiritual subject matter, we must go there. We should not have such discrimination, that city should be neglected. No. Why? They are also human being. They are misled. So we have to give them a little instruction. Everywhere. In cities there is possibility. Whatever we have collected, our men, that is from city, not from the village. So why should we neglect city? Where is the question? [break] All hobgoblin, the last word which I said, “dressing the dead body, decorating the dead body.” The society has no brain; that means dead body. When a man’s brain is gone, he is dead body, maybe he is living. He has no use. Just like a madman. He has got life, but what is the use of that life? It is already dead. Because his brain is deranged. Is it not? So if the brain is lost, brain is deranged, therefore it is dead body. That is thedistinction between living body and dead body. A living man has got brain. He can work with his brain. And the dead bod… The body is there. Why call it dead? Because brain is not working. Brain is dead. That is the difference. Although the hand is there. The dead man has also hand. The leg is there. The dead man has also leg. But why the hand is leg? Because the brain is dead.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it that the śūdra class of men should be trained that they are serving either God or a God conscious leader, or should they be educated to feel that their work is for God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, provided you are for God. They will see and learn. If you simply teach them, you do not do anything, then how they will learn? Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā.When they actually see that “These men are dedicated to God,” then they’ll do whatever you wish.
Yogeśvara: They are making better organizations, but they are not giving any example to the people.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is concocting some ideas, and they are going on as different organization. That’s all. No standard idea. The standard idea is there in the Bhagavad-gītā,that cows should be given protection, gorakṣya. Who is following this? Everyone is making plan how to kill cows in a more scientific way. This is going on. Who is taking the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā? Nobody is taking. Even in India where Bhagavadgītā is originally, these rascals also not taking. And they have become so brainless. Therefore the whole human society is a dead society. And the dead society’s dressing, decorating, is useless waste of time. That’s all. Their education, their advancement… He has no brain. What is the use of education? That is said by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that snake is a snake. Do you think a snake decorated with a jewel on the hood is gentleman? Similarly, a man without brain, so-called education, is just like a jewel on the head of a serpent. Kim asau na bhayaṅkara. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita asks “Whether a snake with jewel on the head is not fearful? He is as much fearful as the other snake without the jewel.” Similarly, if a human being has no brain, with his so-called education or no education, it is as good. The education has no value. He does not know what is good work, what is bad work, what is my aim of life, what is this body, what is the soul? If these things he does not know, then what is the value of his education? So the man is not satisfied?
Guru-gaurāṅga: He was in a hurry to get out.
Yogeśvara: Oh, yes. He asked me to excuse him to you. He had a meeting to go to.
Prabhupāda: I would say “If he has no brain, what is the use of going to a meeting?” (laughter) Our only… Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭrakharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19].The men are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses. What they will do? Meeting of the dogs, hogs, camels and asses will be any beneficial to the society? We are very pessimistic, and our conclusion, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is dogs, hogs, camels, asses, that’s all. No brain, animal. Animal has got brain: how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life. So these people, they have got brain for that purposes only. That is animal life. Actually, they do not know what is the aim of life, why people should be educated, why human society should be organized. They do not know. Bahir-arthamāninaḥ. Enamored by these big, big buildings. That’s all. “Oh, they are so advanced.” And naturally, the common man comes to the European or American city, he says, “Oh, Americans are very rich.” “Rich” means they have piled up stones and bricks, that’s all. This is their richness. What is there in the richness here? But people are common men. They think that this piling of bricks and stone is like real civilization. What do you think? Is that real civilization?
Prabhupāda: Piling of bricks and stones? Heaps of stones and bricks? That is emblem of civilization? They have seen. In Rome they have seen. They also piled like that. Now they have gone. Where they have gone? Why they left? Why they were obliged to leave? That nobody is questioning. And if he has got a different body, if he is living in that house as cats and dogs and rats and ants, then what benefit he has derived? There is possibility. If you have got an attraction for the body, for your house, but you are not going to get a human body, then you’ll have to take your birth in that place, as tree, as plant, as live as rat or cat or ant. You have to live. Nature will give you advantage. But you must get the body according to your karma. That you cannot violate. Where is this science discussed? As soon as we shall speak gentleman like them, they will say, “I have got meeting.”
Yogeśvara: Yes, “I must leave.”
Prabhupāda: Ah, “I must leave.” When we come to real proposition, immediately they want to leave. This is their brain.
Yogeśvara: Every time a gentleman like that comes or a man like that comes and we get too close to the point about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they seem to become afraid.
Prabhupāda: No, as soon as we raise this question, killing, he became sorry. He has no answer. Therefore he wants to be out, evade. “Why Christians are killing?” Anyone I raise this question, immediately he becomes stopped, mum, dumb. That’s all. Christian community, there are so many. Practically the majority of the human society, they are Christian. They are the persons who are indulging in killing. And where is Christian?Judging from the Ten Commandments, there is not a single Christian, not a single, and still, they are going, the Pope, the cardinal, the priest, the church. All simply show-bottles, that’s all. There is no life. And therefore it is dwindling. Practically… Just like our Los Angeles was Christian Church. Nobody was coming. Therefore it was sold. And now there is no place to accommodate devotees. Life is lost in Christian religion. Nobody is interested, no more. And within a few years, it will be lost. It is lost in… I have seen in England. Nobody is going to church. All churches are being closed. How long you will cheat? What is that?
Prabhupāda: I have got it. You can distribute it.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, they have the philosophy that, generally when we ask them, that “God created the world for us to enjoy.” That is what the Christian generally says, that “The world is made for us to enjoy.”
Prabhupāda: But enjoy does not mean that you enjoy sinfully. Did God give that document, that “You enjoy as you like, sinfully.” Enjoy. There is prescription. You enjoy to the prescription. God says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam [Īśo mant ra1]. You simply enjoy what is allotted to you. Don’t encroach upon other’s property. This is God’s injunction. You enjoy. As human being, you enjoy life. You have got food grains, fruits, flowers, milk. Enjoy life. Offer to Kṛṣṇa. Enjoy life. Why should you kill animal? That is God’s… Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. He says patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. Why do you go to kill animals? That is not enjoyment. That means you suffer, therefore you are suffering. You are creating suffering. So this man is at least informed that they have no brain.
Yogeśvara: Maybe he will tell them at his meeting.
Prabhupāda: (laughter) But he could not defend that he has got brain, yes. So however these men may declare very, very big, we know that “You have no brain. You are as good as animal.” Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: [SB 2.3.19] “These classes of men are no better than the dogs, hogs, camels and asses.” Bhāgavata school will not approve of these rascals as human being. They are so strict. If one is not on the platform of God consciousness, he is not human being. He is animal. That’s a fact. But we should not hate the animals because our mission is to bring them to the human consciousness. You cannot expect that your audience should be all highly brain. No. Preaching is required because they have no brain. Therefore your duty is to tolerate all difficulties and bring them to the sense of brain. Not that “These people are animals; we shall not mix with them.” Then you have no missionary activities. Then you sit down in aplace and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then don’t open centers. That is also dangerous. If we imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, “Let us all chant and do nothing,” then the māyā, the women, they are very expert. They could not conquer over Haridāsa Ṭhākura, but she’ll conquer upon you. And become victim. Therefore we have to be active. We cannot imitate Haridāsa. Anyone who has imitated the Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he has fallen down. He has fallen. He must fall down because imitating the highest personality, for which he is not fit. Therefore he’s going to fall down. When by preaching, by chanting, we will be expert, then it is possible. So whether Bhagavān is coming or not?
Guru-gaurāṅga: He missed his airplane.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Missed his airplane?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Now he is supposed to come very, very soon, in about a half an hour. I think there will be many people this evening. (end)